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Post by K6KD on Apr 13, 2016 14:27:22 GMT -8
The question has come up about including reflectors available only via HAM-NET in the Directory. This raises various issues, and it seemed appropriate to create a separate thread for discussion.
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Post by K6KD on Apr 13, 2016 14:28:22 GMT -8
From the thread: Request adding or changing an XRF in the Directory at xrefl.net Hi John, i understund you. Here in Austria, the HAM-NET is huge, and there are Repeaters they have only an HAMNET connectivity. The dxrfd runs on the Big HAMNET Server in Salzburg, there is a VPN Possibility but it is very small. So it´s up to you, if you wan´t i can send you an Screenshot from the Dashboard. Update: I ask the Sysop from the XRF016 what he´s thinking about it. His oppinion is, that the hole idea from the HAMNET is autonomy from the Internet itself, and the HAMNET was made by Amateur-Radio-Guys, so why we don´t use it for Repeaters and Reflectors anyway. Maybe you find a solution, let´s say your right it down that this Reflector is specialy made for the HAMNET, and so only reachable from it? Bye Timm |
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Post by K6KD on Apr 13, 2016 14:42:34 GMT -8
Hi Timm,
I have discussed this with a couple of other folks to get opinions, and wanted to share that with you and others. I appreciate your support and the support of others and want to do the right thing and not try to impose arbitrary rules on the Directory. I think there are two purposes for the Directory: 1) Provide an orderly place to determine XRF numbers available for new reflectors, and 2) facilitate communication by all amateur radio operators by listing the reflectors and the organizations, and that includes providing a source to populate host files.
I don't understand why the sysop considers it necessary to insulate his reflector from the internet. Who besides amateur radio operators would link and does the HAM-NET filter out others?
Some people believe that private reflectors are fine. I share that opinion, but if you want to have a private reflector, then those participants should maintain the infrastructure - host files, publicizing, etc.
One question comes about - if a reflector is on the list, does that mean no one else should use the same number? Also, I wanted links on the Directory to be live and working. Otherwise, the credibility of the Directory can be compromised. If someone can't even see a dashboard, then not clear what the point is of including it.
Maybe you might ask the sysop to come on here. Let's have a good discussion.
There is a related topic about expanding the software to use a different reflector prefix, maybe PVT to indicate a private reflector and modifying the existing software to accommodate this.
Let's discuss.
73
John
K6KD
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oe5stm
Junior Member
Posts: 97 
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Post by oe5stm on Apr 13, 2016 20:16:46 GMT -8
Hi John,
the Reason why the XRF016 is not from the Internet Reachabel is, that on the Mountain there is no Internet.
The Repeaters in "Land Salzburg" they have only a HAMNET Link.
One of the Austrian HAMNET Mainserver are on one of those mountains, and the XRF016 is on this Mainserver installed.
There is a very small Internet Connection, let´s say a few KB/s.
The Italian they used the XRF666 as a VPN Connection and it was listed too.
My oppinion is the same like from Mike, we have our own Network and why we should´nt uses it for us?
This Reflector and the connexted Repeaters works even when the Internet won´t.
For one DExtra connection the Internet-VPN works(XRF016 to XRF022), so this Reflektor isn´t isolated.
Here in the german speaking Area the HAMNET is established and a lot of HAM`s will use it.
A lot of Repeaters don´t have a Internet-Connection, only HAMNET, so this Repeaters now can connect to this Reflector, but only when the folks know it.
HAMNET is our own Network, only for HAMs, so let´s use it.
I think that which numbers are free, depence on the DExtra_Hosts File from the ircDDBGateway.
Bye
Timm
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Post by K6KD on Apr 14, 2016 0:44:17 GMT -8
Hi Timm,
I think I understand that they have very limited internet capability, so they are using an alternate. That seems reasonable, but if that is the situation, I don't understand why they would want to be listed in a directory for public, generally accessible reflectors. One purpose of a public directory is to let people know what they can link to.
Public sources such as this directory are used by some people to create host file lists which populates the host files, such as DExtra_Hosts.txt. Maybe the users of the HAM-NET have a source of host files that include these reflectors, so again, they would have no need for the public host files.
I don't know the detailed situation of XRF666 but their dashboard is publicly available. XRF016 is not, and putting it in the directory would be having a link that does not work for must users. I have heard that there are some reflectors in Europe that use a VPN for repeater to reflector connections, but still have publicly accessible reflectors.
I hope more people will offer opinions here, because I am not understanding the benefit of including such reflectors.
Sorry if I am not understanding too well.
73
John
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oe5stm
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by oe5stm on Apr 14, 2016 2:47:46 GMT -8
Hi John,
it´s no problem if we not listed.
Otherwise what i don´t understand is, that the Reflectors only caon use from Hams, so the word Public is not quiet right.
What i don´t understand the HAM they has there own "Internet" and there are Reflectors/Repeaters on it, why we don´t wanna list it?
It´s our Internet, not for the "normal" folks, we all here we are HAM´s, so it isn´t public to access for all people.
Bye
Timm
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Post by oe2wao on Apr 14, 2016 5:04:40 GMT -8
Hello Timm, hello John, first of all I want to say that it's a high priority to not let escalate this discussion until anyone is locked out. Most of the time the reason for that is, that several topics are misunderstood or unknown. In this case the advanced development of the worldwide hamradio network AMPR has brought up the now so called HAMNET - highspeed amateurradio multimedia network. This system is a wireless TCPIP based network build up independent from the internet. db0fhn.efi.fh-nuernberg.de/doku.php?id=projects:wlan:hamnetThe HAMNET is no privat island, it is the biggest innovation in hamradio among the last years, and the worldwide biggest hamradio data network. hamnetdb.net/lsp_map.cgiTherefor HAMNET is platform for several services, one of these could be DSTAR. The actual topic is now to bring XRF into this, for amateurradio use so perfect network. The intension is to establish an open system, right before other closed systems are taking place. Every service in the HAMNET is available to every amateurradio operator in the world, that should be one of the guidelines. In the special case of XRF016 there is also a connection to another XRF via, as Timm called it "limited access", internet. So these both system are brought together. I hope therefore to have taken everyone's concerns, and thus the way is clear. best reg. Mike |
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Post by K6KD on Apr 14, 2016 11:39:25 GMT -8
Hi Mike and Timm,
Thanks very much for the information. I have a much better understanding of what you are involved with. I added XRF016 to the directory and noted this in the other thread.
Mike - I agree completely about having good discussions, realizing that often there can be areas of misunderstanding. When we realize we all have good intentions, we can see past the sometimes areas of confusion or misunderstanding.
All the best,
73
John
K6KD
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